As I read more of this and this I realized that the issue is even more confused than I initially realized.
Our brother Jeremy said, “Due to the fact that the church was without a baptismal and the lakes were frozen I was given the option to be baptized via pouring or wait until the summer. I knew that the baptism via pouring was not completely perfect but reasoned that an immediate baptism via pouring was better than a delayed baptism. Had I known then that so much dissension and controversy surrounds the modes and timing of baptism I would have waited until the summer. Nevertheless, in my eagerness to identify myself with Christ and obey his Word I opted to be baptized by pouring.”
“I finally came to the conclusion that my initial pouring baptism was indeed defective and yet valid. As in all of our obedience, I see a degree of sin and error in it. And at the same time I am counting on God’s grace to “sanctify” my defective baptism that was done in faith and with a desire to obey his word.”
“Nevertheless, it was also my desire to be re-baptized by immersion so as to honor the policies, leadership, and polity of my church and its elders. Unfortunately, this concession was regarded as insufficient by my elders and they have (thus far) been unwilling to baptize me due to the fact that I still regard my initial baptism as valid and hope to see BBC’s membership policy change.”
Wherein lies the problem?
1. The initial act of pouring was realized to be “imperfect”, yet was accepted as valid. There is only one mode of baptism that faithfully represents the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and that is immersion. Thus, this baptism was not valid.
2. The pouring “baptism” is realized to be defective, yet accepted as valid. If my car had defective tires on it I would change them ASAP. Why should we not be all the more concerned to remedy defective practice in our spiritual life? Though Jeremy writes with much graciousness, and great conviction I cannot but wonder what path of logic leads him to his conclusions? Why consider that which is defective as valid? This seems to be more of an issue of subjective feelings than submission to objective truth. That being said, I’m sure we all have our blind spots. I do hope that he will come to decide that his pouring is invalid.
3. Finally, Jeremy desires to be “re-baptized” in submission to the elders and policies of Bethlehem. This is very admirable and gracious. I would to God that we would have millions with such a spirit! This, too, is a problem, though. The real issue is that submission to the truth of Scripture that requires immersion for baptism should be the motivation behind his seeking this “re-baptism” that would truly be baptism for the first time.
While many cry “legalism” about this requirement of immersion for membership in a Baptist church, this is not so. To cry “legalism” is so very close to an ad hominem argument. It is an easy way to dismiss the issue at hand. While I am not familiar with them personally, I do not think that the elders and Bethlehem are counting anyone who is unbaptized as unsaved. Neither do I think they are counting the unbaptized Christian as being second class, or lesser than others. They are simply standing for their convictions concerning ecclesiology and what constitutes a New Testament church. They are seeking to obey God according to the light that they have. Is that not what all who seek to honor Christ wish to do?
In the end, I must praise Jeremy (though I do not know him) for his gracious humility in this matter. Many people would become bitter, but he is trying to work through the issue in an humble manner.
I must also praise the elders of Bethlehem for standing up for their Scriptural convictions in spite of what could be intense pressure both from within and without.
I trust that, when all is said and done, Jeremy will write and tell the world how he came to understand the need for baptism by immersion (what else does baptizo mean?) and submitted to it in accordance with God’s Word.
Just musing………..
September 18, 2007 at 9:31 am
Anonymous brother,
Thank you for your willingness to engage in this discussion with love, charity, and humility. I pray that our common Lord would assist us both as we seek his will in these matters.
I have not responded to many comments or linked posts on this issue. Nevertheless, I consider it wise to clarify one issue that you bring up: the impossibility of an imperfect valid baptism.
I am not so arrogant to assume that any of my acts of obedience to our Lord are without error or sin. I know, at least in part, the deceitfulness of my heart and how deceitful sin is in my (our?) lives. Even in the midst of my desires to obey Christ I see error and sin. As a result, I am counting wholly upon our Lord to accept, by the means of his atoning work, my obedience to him, even while it is imperfect.
I consider my baptism valid, not because it is without error in form (I have already stated that it is) but because Jesus Christ has atoned for all of my errors and sins - even those present in my baptism.
You have already noted, accurately, that I am willing to be baptized again with the permission of my elders. The one thing that I have not been willing to do is regard my previous baptism as invalid. To do so, in my mind, would be to deny God’s sanctifying grace in the midst of it.
May I return the question? Was your baptism without imperfection? Was your own heart so pure during the act that it was without sin or error?
Peace to you my dear brother in Christ,
Jeremy Archer
September 18, 2007 at 9:44 am
Jeremy,
Thanks so much for honoring me by responding.
I trust that great blessing will come out of this dialogue.
My baptism was not without imperfection, I am sure. Did I sin during baptism? Not of which I am aware. I would say that I was guilty of not having full knowledge of the importance of the ordinance, yet I did know that it was necessary.
That being said, it was Biblical in form, intent, and desire. I was immersed, and intended and desired to honor and follow my Savior.
On the other hand, there have been times in my life that I knew that my obedience was imperfect in form and/or in spirit. In those cases I have tried to make it a practice to remedy the problem when possible. Sometimes we cannot go back, because what is done is done. At other times we can fix the problem by offering a more substantial obedience.
Perhaps an example of this imperfect obedience would help. There have been times that I have preached something that I found later to be in error. I cannot go back and change the sermon that I preached. On the other hand, I can often preach upon the subject again and present my Biblically modified views. Both sermons would have imperfection within them. Which do you think would be most honored by God? Should I trust in the sanctifying grace of God and keep preaching the same error, or should I correct the error? Would sanctifying grace allow me to continue in error, or lead me to correct it?
Jeremy, I cannot help but sense a very gracious spirit that is manifest in your writings. I do hope that you will give serious consideration to what I say. It’s not because I’m so smart, but because we must strive for a fuller and more perfect obedience.
Thanks again for writing. My God bless your journey with His presence and the smile of His countenance.
Jason
September 18, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Your analogy “If my car had defective tires..” didn’t work very well for me. If your car had defective tires, you (and the rest of the world) would still call them tires. But immersion only people can not call Jeremy’s baptism a baptism, for example you use quotes around the word. To fit with your use of tires, Jeremy is saying well these don’t have the greatest tread but its all I can afford, whereas immersion only people are saying pshaw, those aren’t tires. In this sense Jeremy’s reasoning is not insubordination, he can replace the tires but it wouldn’t be the first time tires where on his car.
Because I am not a credo-baptist, I also find statements like “[t]he real issue is that submission to the truth of Scripture that requires immersion for baptism..” as begging the question. Would you happen to know of anything I could read that is a good exegesis on this point? I know it was never a majority view in the history of the church (chapter 7 of the Didache seems to be an example of this), so I find it a bit hard to accept the immersion only pre-supposition.
I’m not sure if Jeremy would agree but it seems to me as if he is similarly not convinced of the truth of your assertion by his reading of scripture and investigation into the matter.
I’m also real curious if you think there is only one way to faithfully represent the Lord’s supper?
I’m sorry for writing so much but this seems like a good chance to learn about such principled immersion only credo-baptism, because I really have never come across it.
- Paul
September 18, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Paul,
Thanks for writing.
Every analogy is imperfect. They should be treated as Spurgeon said parables should be treated, that is by seeking the main point and not making them walk on “all fours.”
The case for Jeremy is somewhat different than you declare, because he seems to accept that immersion is what is required for baptism. Otherwise, why would he have declared it defective?
For reference on the issue of baptism, I would highly recommend Adoniram Judson’s “On Christian Baptism” from Audobon Press http://www.audubonpress.com/home.php
Jim Eliff also has one called “Going Under” http://www.ccwonline.org
As concerning the Lord’s Supper, what exactly is your question concerning it?
You may email your answer to jntskip @ bluebottle . com (remove the spaces)
Thanks for writing, Paul. I trust that we can dialogue in a manner that is befitting Christians and will bring glory to God.
Jason
P.S. My copy of the Didache has a note that says the part concerning pouring/sprinkling appears to be an addition from a later date.
September 18, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Thanks for the reply,
I will try and carefully write up my question about the Lord’s supper and email it it you. Thanks for the book references.
Interesting note about the Didache, I notice even Wikipedia makes mention of it
I’m still confused about your use of the word defective. When Jeremy uses it, it appears to be synonymous with “imperfect”. You seem to be using it like “inadequate”. It appears Jeremy himself doesn’t view his baptism as inadequate to be considered a valid baptism, but he is willing to do it again for the sake of those who do.
- Paul
September 19, 2007 at 8:43 am
Paul,
The reasoning behind my statement is the fact that I am convinced that baptizo mean immersion. I’ll try to post something on that in the future, but do not have the time to enter into immersion vs. sprinkling/pouring at the moment.
Jeremy also thinks that God will sanctify his defective “baptism” and all will be well. Typically, when one is in error and can change it, sanctifying grace will lead us to correct the error.
Thanks for writing. I’ll look forward to hearing from you on the Lord’s Supper. I’ve never had much dialogue on it, and stand to learn from others.
Jason